Wed 13 Jul 2005
Pentagon resorts to identity theft to boost recruitment
Posted by MrKedder under Civil Liberties , NationalSince the meat-grinder days of Vietnam demonstrated to the American people just what the military was capable of when it could conscript all the soldiers it wanted and the public demonstrated their vocal outrage at the draft, the military has been all-volunteer. This makes it dependent upon the will of individual citizens to sign up and agree to the constrictions of military service. In most cases, the recruit is aware or made aware of the structured life, regimented days and nights, and risk of death or injury that they will undertake during their service. Some people find the risks as explained to be acceptable while others do not. The choice of military service remains just that, a choice to be made or not depending on personal factors.
But in today’s war, with over 1700 dead and over 10,000 wounded (read: maimed, most often by losses of limbs due to road-side explosives), the Pentagon has learned that relying on volunteering has its own drawbacks. Every month brings new reports of the recruitment shortfalls by most or all of the branches of the military. The Army is 40 percent short so far, with three months left in the year. The other branches of the military, especially the National Guard, haven’t fared well either, despite the risk to National Guards being “overstated“. So what’s a Pentagon with a war to fight to do?
Introducing the Joint Advertising and Market Research Recruiting Database! Are you between the ages of 16 and 20-something? Have you ever applied for a job? A credit card? Do you have a Social Security number or a driver’s license? Well congratulations, because you’re in! You’ve made the cut. Expect a call from the military anytime soon. Or make that multiple calls. And letters. And more calls. And more letters. Maybe, if you’re lucky, a recruiter will show up somewhere you least expect and start with the campaign to get you to sign up!
As someone who never considered military service ever, even in the deepest recesses of his brain, I don’t want to seem as if I am against military service. But I would like to see an ethical process for American citizens becoming soldiers. Promising cash and prizes and college educations is not a moral way to convince people to sign up for the service. Combing through the realm of supposedly-private information to build a database for targetting potential recruits is not a moral way to find people to sign up for the service. Even the Christian Monitor objects to the latest Pentagon actions.
The Pentagon will always target the young, and this is something that will hardly change. Old soldiers don’t exactly inspire awe or confidence. But I will never agree to the military having access to every citizen whether they want to be contacted or not. And I certainly don’t agree with theprovisions in No Child Left Behind that constrain federal school funding to giving access to military recruiters. Most of the opt-out choices available aren’t broadly advertised to students in high school and college. It’s the military’s little secret that they don’t want people to know about: you can ask to be left out and left alone!. So if you have children and you don’t want them exposed to the tactics of recruitment that caused a suspension of all recruiting on May 20th, talk to your kids about the opt-out. If you are a student and feel the same way, do the same thing.
The choice is yours, to sign up for service or to be left alone without harassment that questions your integrity and patriotism. It’s not less noble to not want to fight, no matter what anyone says. Despite all the trappings, ribbons, medals, bows, shiny boots and impressive ranks, being a soldier has one basic truth to it: you may get ordered to kill someone, and the government will pay you for it. That is why I could not serve. Call me crazy, but there’s nothing in America so great that I would kill a man for it. Especially if we were both thousands of miles away from America, the man was no threat to me or my country, and my entire reason for being in his country was a fabricated lie by an amoral President.
July 15th, 2005 at 8:58 am
Mrkedder, you are truly a disgusting sort. Without this recruiting going on, you may not have the freedom to write your stinking blog. The taxpayer is paying for public schools so why would we not expect military recruiters to be allowed on school grounds. Despite what you say about new recruitment goals, the military re-enlistment rate is through the roof. This says one thing, the soldiers understand their job which, unfortunately, people like you do not. The reason recruitment is down is because anti war peacniks like yourself, are spending all your time in front of your computer with your Ben & Jerrys, writing blogs demeaning our soldiers, our leaders, and our nation and discouraging young Americans to stand up for the beliefs of a free society. If you have never considered military service, fine. But don’t denigrate the people who do or the recruiters trying to establish the best all volunteer army the world has ever known. You are a despicable human being who unfortunately for you must rely on this volunteer military to afford you the protections and freedom you enjoy today. I feel sorry for you but you could always move to Canada like I’m sure your friends did during Vietnam.
July 15th, 2005 at 9:38 am
“… I don’t want to seem as if I am against military service. But I would like to see an ethical process for American citizens becoming soldiers.”
Reading is fun and easy!
Also:
“The taxpayer is paying for public schools so why would we not expect military recruiters to be allowed on school grounds.”
Taxpayers are indeed paying for public schools, but a.) it’s mostly local or state tax money and not so much federal and b.) as a taxpayer myself, I wouldn’t want those funds spent bombarding kids (my kids some day) with constant military recruitment.
July 15th, 2005 at 11:08 am
“But don’t denigrate the people who do or the recruiters trying to establish the best all volunteer army the world has ever known.”
Best all-volunteer army? Didn’t you read any of the attached articles? Maybe you skipped the part where the military is set to lower all standards of recruitment testing, allowing high school drop-outs to sign up easier. That’s your ‘best’? I can hardly be expected to jump for joy to learn that my country (along with it’s billions of dollars of military equipment) will now be operated by people who didn’t have the ability or will-power to finish the 12th grade. Would you, Dom? Is that your idea of the best, really?
“discouraging young Americans to stand up for the beliefs of a free society”
The beliefs of a free society don’t just include the right to believe in war. It also includes the right to believe in peace, something the military hawks don’t agree with because it would limit their ability to spend a grossly disporportionate piece of our national GDP on death machines and civilian killers. Persons like yourself, Dom, who write opinion responses like yours, these are the people who are a threat to free society. You exist in a retarded world where anyone that disagrees with you is your mortal enemy. You probably agree with things like anti-flag-burning amendments, abortion restrictions, marriage restrictions, and all sorts of other EXTREMELY intrusive examples of government power made possible by the GOP, the “smaller federal government party”.
As for the argument that I don’t deserve my freedoms becuase I speak out against the army, well, let’s just say that my response to you is largely unprintable. STFU just about sums it up. You are not thinking clearly if you think that American Citizenship requires me to bow to the whims of the army or its less-than-honest Commander-in-Chief. I am not required by the Constitution to respect men and women who abuse prisoners, kill journalists (and unarmed, wounded, helpless, surrendered-and-in-custody Iraqi insurgents), and have destroyed the entire infrastructure of a country (except the oil industry, of course) while waltzing in expecting to be greated “like liberators”.
You ideas are simply tired, Dom. They’re old and outdated. And Duc is correct, you did seem to simply choose to ignore a lot of what I wrote so as to make it easier to rant away and flame my article with your war-mongering diatribe. What kind of self-deluded person still uses the word “peacenik” as an insult? And while you’re telling me to go to Canada just because I love the idea of a world at peace, how about I tell you to go and move to Cuba, or China, or North Korea? These are all shining examples of the world you must love, where the military is in charge of everything and the people have no freedom to speak against the military or do anything that the military doesn’t allow.
In the meantime, I will stay here and enjoy the freedoms earned for me (and you too, Dom), but not by today’s soldiers. Today’s soldiers don’t fight to protect freedom, they fight to protect Bush’s lies. I will enjoy freedoms earned by men like my grandfather, who fought in World War II, which was a real war for freedom and justice. I’m still an American, and I will stay here, exercising my rights to free speech. If I had a chance to meet you face to face, Dom, I’d exercise my right to give you a double-dose of middle finger, because you insulted me as a person based on something I wrote as opinion, which I consider to be way out of line.
This is MrKedder, the disgusting sort, signing off. You stay classy, Planet Earth.
July 15th, 2005 at 3:50 pm
As much as I’m looking forward to it, I won’t be holding my breath for a second response from Dom. *grin*
Just in case he does though, I wanted to point out a few things. This war is about freedom, its just that the definition of the word has changed. No longer is it defined by the philosophy that America was founded on, today freedom means the right of the public to consume products that they don’t need and the right of corporations to generate profit by any means necessary (including war). Its Freedom for a New Generation, all thanks to the wonder of hydrocarbon energy, which being the underlying reason for the war and all does in an ironic way make it about freedom, just not the same kind that America was founded on or the same kind that gets thrown around by so-called “patriots” these days.
“In the meantime, I will stay here and enjoy the freedoms earned for me (and you too, Dom), but not by today’s soldiers. Today’s soldiers don’t fight to protect freedom, they fight to protect Bush’s lies. I will enjoy freedoms earned by men like my grandfather, who fought in World War II, which was a real war for freedom and justice.”
Right on, man.
July 19th, 2005 at 12:23 am
I would also encourage folks to get involved in couter-recruitment activities in their areas. Change has to come from the bottom up, so organize. Get out there and talk to people. All the important social change that’s been achieved in this country started with ordinary people who were pissed off. People have an enormous amount of power. We need to use it.
Peace,
Sarah
July 19th, 2005 at 11:27 am
In the spirit of that, one of my favorite political cartoons-
http://www.thenewwisdom.com/authordata/onebigfist2.jpg
July 21st, 2005 at 5:06 pm
Sorry Duc, the federal government spent 40 Billion on public education last year. And who says they are bombarded? Recruiters hand out pamplets and talk to students who are interested, they don’t strong-arm them into signing up. This isn’t the Middle East where citizens are conscripted into the military. Remember we still have a VOLUNTEER military.
All you people who don’t believe our soldiers are fighting for your freedoms, should just go ahead and convert to Islam. You can use that white flag you’re waving to wrap your head.
Allah be with you.
July 21st, 2005 at 6:47 pm
Dom, please read your post along with me, and let’s look deeply into some things that need clarifying, context, and perhaps more discussion.
1. Why is 40 Billion dollars spent on education by the federal government impressive? It may mean they have a right to recruit. But what does that say about objective criticism of the methods they use?
2. Some recruiters are heavy-handed, manipulative, and probably 99% or more are not in the business of providing critical information about the military. I have been the target of recruiters in the past, I know, and I’ve seen others at work, and in the news.
3. There was a time when we conscripted people in the military. Not too long ago. Were we wrong to do it in Vietnam? And lets not forget the way reservists are being kept from leaving when their service is supposed to be up. And can you tell me how many middle-east nations do conscript? All? One? Five? Most? A few? Maybe they all do. I just don’t know. But I doubt they all do.
And, we should not generalize about “the Middle East.” It is a complex and diverse place, just like North America.
4. I believe that most of our soldiers believe they are fighting for our freedoms. And if it were up to them, they would be fighting for our freedoms. Unfortunately, they have been viciously deceived. That is the shame.
5. There are Islamic US soldiers. You have shamed yourself by castigating the religion of brave men and women who are so willing to fight for your freedoms.
6. It is not too late. Get away from the websites and news sources you frequent. They are doing you a disservice, and I say this with all the honesty in my heart. These topics you bring up are very complex, not so cut-and-dry.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:52 pm
Many countries conscript. Among them Lebanon, Iran, Afghanista(pre-liberation), Iraq(pre-liberation),Turkey, Turkmenistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Georgia, Russia, China, North Korea and even countries such as Spain and Germany.
The point here is that without military recruiters and our all volunteer service, we would be forced once again into conscription and I’m sure none of you wants that, do you? So why don’t you support military recruiters? Would you rather nobody sign up freely so that the military will have to force people into service for a period of time once they graduate high school, like other European countries do?
We have the most intelligent, most advanced, and best trained military in the world. The reason for this is because the people joining the military want to be there. If you don’t want to be there (because you were “forced” or “coerced”) there are many ways to get discharged. The fact of the matter is that while new recruits is down, re-enlistment is up. This is a testement to dedication and commitment of our volunteer military. They wouldn’t re-enlist if it wasn’t what they expected.
The military in pre-war Iraq and Afghanistan was made up primarily of conscripts. The new military is all volunteer and even though they are frequently targeted, they continue to enlist at record numbers.
These issues are very complex and are not cut and dry and that’s the exact reason you should not take our military men and women for granted and drop your belief that if our military disappears, so does all the world’s problems. Never has one nation’s army given so much for the liberation and freedom of so many. Remember that!
And if you don’t see a threat from the “diverse” and “complex” countries in the Middle East, you have your head in the sand. These Muslim, yes Muslim, fanatics want to destroy us by any means necessary. They want to destroy our government, our economy, our morale. And you are assisting them. They would like no better than to install an Islamic theocracy here in America. This is a real threat, it’s not a lie, it’s not hype and it’s not make believe. You need to get out and read some books and learn what these extremists really want to do to us and what they really, deeply believe. We can’t just go over there and say, ‘hey stop this and make peace’, and expect it to happen. Sorry but that’s living in a fantasy world. Even if you believe the moderate Muslims claim that their religion has been hijacked by a minority of extremists it still amounts to a huge threat. While 99% of the world’s Muslims may be peace loving people, that still means that there is that 1% (15 million) who are extremists and want our ultimate destruction. Our current military consists of about 1.5 million volunteers.
Do you now see why it’s so important to keep recruiting up. If we get attacked again on a large scale we may need to draft. If that’s the case I hope that all Americans will realize this threat for what it is…a fight for our FREEDOM.
It’s not too late, wake up!
July 22nd, 2005 at 3:00 pm
I believe the ultimate target is not “anti-recruitment practices” but “anti-unethical recruitment practices.” The articles discussed go over the lies and such that recruiters use to convince impressionable youth usually from the lowest classes to join the military. Stories have broken over the last year about recruiters promising new recruits they will not go to Iraq or ever see battle, telling the same lies to the parents of these recruits. Also, my favorite, was the the recruiter talking to a kid who wasn’t interested, and he asked for the kid’s name, address, and phone number to ensure that the kid is taken off the list of people to ask. Of course, that was a lie, and now the kid is on the mailing list. Also, using the McDonald’s Birthday Club list to determine when exactly certain people turn 18 was always an interesting little strategy to me.
Do I appreciate the all-volunteer army: Yes
Do I think recruitment is necessary: Yes
Do I think some recruiters use unethical practices: Yes
Do I think there is any accountability in this practice: No
As for the other arguments, I’ll paste my other comment here. Regardless, I find your anti-Islam stance rather disquieting. Every religion has its zealots that will kill for their God.
****
The war is about oil. The war is about freedom. The war is about terrorism. It is about all these things.
You cannot deny that Saddam Hussein was a bad dude, regardless of whether or not he was dealing with Al Qaeda or other foreign terrorists or if he had weapons of mass destruction (none of which has been reliably proven). Of course, being a “bad dude” is no reason to go storming a sovereign nation is it? There are *PLENTY* of bad dudes out there, just not all of them have oil…not all of them were at war with the president’s father. I’m a humanist, so yeah, I want the bad man removed and the people to live free. But the world is not like that, America cannot be the one to go rushing in like the superhero all the time, at least not without the approval of the world. Why aren’t we rushing into the Sudan? Or Cuba? Or any other arena where a group of humans in power is slaughtering and surpressing another group with less power.
You also cannot deny that we are fastly and some may say blindly approaching an energy crisis of civilization shattering importance. The reason? Extreme dependence of hydrocarbons, increased demand worldwide, and dwindling supplies. Securing the last remaining oil fields is a necessity for continued survival (since no one seems able to realize that alternative energy is the only way we will survive)
You also cannot deny that there is terrorism. But, one has to explore the reasons for terrorism. Yes, there are insane clerics out there preaching hate…but why are they preaching hate? They are preaching hate because of their fanaticism…or because of the ills America has done in the Middle East…or both. A professor at the University of Chicago I believe has assembled a database of all suicide bomber attacks. The stunning revelation is that in 99% of these attacks, the bomber was attacking a foreign force that was occupying their homeland. Discounting the “freedom fighter” vs “terrorist” argument is foolish.
Regardless, I support the troops. I always support the troops. Saying that someone does not support the troops is also foolish, I do not think anyone WANTS the troops to die or “fail” (depending on what you think the definition of success is) I can still feel bad about what the soldiers have to go through. I can still disagree with why the soldiers have to put their lives on the line. I can still recognize the good that the soldiers do even if I think their presence is causing much of the problems.
I can appreciate the individual stories and heroic actions, while still be horrified at the entire picture taken as a whole.
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:03 pm
I’ll add:
Thanks for the conscription stats. Do more in the Middle East conscript? You only mentioned a few, and that was what I was asking. I don’t know, which is why I asked it.
I agree, our military is great, brave, heroic, and ready to die for us. But though they die for us, they are unwittingly fighting for interests that are opposed to the people of our country and the rest of the world. Many of them are beginning to realize this. Many still do not. We need to respect them, tell them the truth, and return them to safety.
Why do you suspect soldiers are leaving? Is it that some are tired of fighting? Perhaps, and they deserve a rest. Is it because some realize war in general is horrible? Perhaps, and nobody should blame them for wanting to leave after witnessing the horrors. Is it because some realize the war is a lie? Perhaps.
There are fanatical Islamists. But they can be easily, I will say again, easily nullified without aerial bombings and occupations. You see, our government is not in the business of stopping terrorism. You must realize that is the cover story, the PR. They would have never gone to Iraq if the goal was to prevent terror. And you cannot stop terror by invading countries, you will only exacerbate it. This is because one of the main reason Islamic terrorists are active is occupation, whether it be in Israel, Iraq, or military bases in Saudi Arabia and the like.
I am not living in a fantasy world. The Middle East is indeed complex. The vast majority of the citizens of these countries are just trying to get by, like people in every other country. They are not terrorists or extremists. The problem is: We’re not helping these people, we’re only exacerbating the angers of the already extreme, and pushing those on the edge over the edge.
And of course, I never said if our military disappears, so do the worlds problems. We just need to put the military where help is needed, and actually use our military in a way that will help. We do often put them in good places to help. Its actually helping where we often fall short. And where did I say I take the military men and women for granted? Please just analyze what I write. You simply refuse to address my arguments, which I will continue to assume means you cannot refute them.
We must separate the goodness of our soldiers from the evils of our Administration (in fact, most if not all Administrations, Dems and Repubs). We must utilize them in ways that honors their sacrifice to serve. We are currently not doing that. There are reasons why our government hires PR firms.
We need a new world order of democracy and cooperation, not corporatocracy and domination dressed as democracy and cooperation. I actually wrote about how we can try to circumvent dictatorial extremist regimes here (particularly under the section, “Indictments and Therapy”):
http://www.thenewwisdom.com/2005/07/preventative-anti-terrorism-vs-chemo-and-surgery-how-not-to-fear/
I don’t claim to know the answer, but I think there are ways worth opining. But what we must realize now: our leaders are not in the War on Terror for the reasons they say they are. The evidence is astounding.
Perhaps terrorists are a threat. But we need to realize that they do not have the power to take over the United States. Do you actually believe we are at risk of being invaded and enslaved by a Muslim extremist government? I’m more concerned that a Christian extremist government may take over some day, and perhaps even by the ballot box.
Man, this comment is scattered.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:46 am
Okay Ben, it’s time to re-evaluate your last post. First things first, our military is not here to “help”. They are here to fight. They fight for our freedom and the beliefs and foundation or our country. We do not have a military that is here to hand out rucksacks of rice. (Even thought they do it often) They often do help poor people, and that is what separates our military from that of other nations, but that is not why they are around. We have to ensure that our military understands the threat that surrounds us. Unlike the citizens like yourself, these recruits understand only too well what kind of threat we face. They’ve seen it first hand. They see the kind of destruction and fear that these terrorists cause. They understand the threat that our country faces, even though citizens like yourself denounce this threat as non-existent. This is why they fight, this is why they re-enlist and this is why they are commited to killing the enemy before they kill us.
If you do not think that a Muslim extremist element threatens our way of life, then you are naive. How can they be “easily” nullified? Can we just send them MORE money and MORE food and expecet their evil intent to subside? Should we send them Korans with “gift of the US” printed inside? Yes it is certaintly far fetched that they will invade, in the conventional sense, and take over our country. But what if they detonated a nuclear device or dirty bomb in the port of LA? Or in NY, or in Louisiana, or Oregon? Do you think they care how many people they kill? Osama bin Laden has demanded that terrorists kill 4 million Americans, 2 million of them children, in order to get his point across. Do you think that they won’t try to accomplish this? They are not just misunderstood, honorable Muslims just trying to get by. They are cold blooded killers that believe we Americans are Satan. They are dedicated to the total destruction of our way of life. They will stop at nothing in order to kill as many non-Muslims as they can. They will kill man, woman, child and dog if it serves their purpose and have no regrets. If they could blow up the entire US and kill all 300 million of us, don’t doubt they would do it in a minute. These people are animals and they’re numbers are growing. Not because of what we’ve done in the world but because of an ideology. A belief that they are better than us. That they are holier than us. That they will go to heaven if they kill us. They are not misunderstood, we understand them well. They want to KILL us! And they won’t stop until they are dead. Don’t you remember watching the newscasts which showed Pakistanis dancing in the streets as they watched the towers fall. This was before the Iraq war, and they still hated us. Imagine that, they hate us. How do you change that without force? The answer is, you don’t. We must fight them now and fight them with everything we have. We must destroy them in their homes and in their mosques. We must never let up. We must ensure that they understand that the more of them that attack us, the more of them will die.
We did not start this war, they did! But we will win. We will hunt them down, we will break up their organizations, we will sieze their funds, and we will kill their ranks and break up their cells. We will break their will and destroy their spirit. That is how you “nullify” our enemy, not with empty promises, not with handouts, and certainly not with appeasments.
Maybe these crazies do not have the power to take over the US but they certiantly can do us tremendous financial and moral damage, if they choose to use WMD’s against us. Should we wait around and let them attack us before we confront the danger? I think not. We need to attack every cell, every group, every organization, every Muslim, which has sworn war against our country. We need to expose them for the dangers they pose. We need to destroy them at every chance, every opportunity and consistently in order to defeat this danger.
Sorry but things aren’t as cut and dry as they seem. These people want to destroy our way of life and no weak appeasements or concessions will stop that. The only way to stop them is with force. If we attack them at their core, we do immense damage to their infrastructure and prevent future attacks. We will weaken their resolve and slow their growth. We will show them the errors of their ways and place them on the path to democracy, which will improve their lives and hopefully change their outlook of the future. They will understand that the more Muslims that join their ranks, the more Muslims will die in the name of a mistaken ideology.
It’s strange that you’re more concerned about an “extremist” Christian government to take over our country rather than Muslim extremists. Our nation is founded on Christian beliefes and I don’t remeber Christians blowing themselves up in order to go to heaven. It figures by your posts that your an atheist or agnositic or whatever but I seriously can’t belive that you would place their beliefs and ideals over that of our country and our forefathers. These Muslim’s insane religious beliefes and unfounded claims that their faith is under attack is starting to change the tone in liberals. Liberals are now actually fighting in defense of these extremists. And that’s what they are hoping for. Liberals are fighting for terrorists in Gitmo. They are fighting for terrorists under attack in Europe. They are fighting for their right to attack our soldiers as “freedome fighters”. They are fighting for their right to live even after they attack and kill our solders. They are fighting for the rights of these terrorists over the rights of our own citizens. It’s just plain sad and dispicable.
You need to see these people for what they are. An immense threat to our way of life. You need to wake up and see that we are under attack. They are betting that most citizens will be pacifists like yourself and refuse to fight. They are hoping that citizens like yourself will continue to criticize our government in their fight against them and bring down the moral of our solders. They are hoping that you will install in the citizenry of the US the lack of will to fight this Islamic threat. They will continue their attack against our or ideals in the hopes that intellectuals like yourself will continue to denounce our fight against them and assist them in their bid to destroy our beliefs and ultimatly take over our nation’s government.
Congratulations! You are helping them acheive their goal of destroying this great country. I hope you can sleep at night.
I know I can.
July 25th, 2005 at 7:11 am
(1) Of course a military is meant to know how to fight. But it should be fighting for the right cause, in the right way. The wrong way: invading Iraq, and only protecting the oil ministry, secret police offices, etc, just one minor example. But this part of the argument, that are military is being tragically abused and misused by our current admin (and lets not forget their failure to help the VA)… I’m sure many of our recruits know what kind of threat we face. How that helps your argument is beyond me.
(2)When you question me on how do we easily nullify them, my answer is in the links I believe, so I suppose you didn’t bother to read, else you would have countered the concepts within.
(3) “We did not start this war, they did”… is little more than a slogan. What Iraq did to start the war, I’m not sure. And Iraq certainly had nothing to do with Islamic extremism. But we all knew that from day one, unless we were deceived, which many of us were, by the admin. Our soldiers were deceived too. Hence, the problem.
(4) Yes, we stand a better chance of being ruled by Christian fundamentalists than Muslim ones. Because Christians will win electorally. How such a sentiment is atheistic is also beyond me.
(5) “Weak appeasements and concessions”: who said anything about either of these? Not me. I talked about undercutting the extremists by helping civil society (which would probably be pretty massive help), forging truely democratic connections. Not only would this be more effective than wars (which probably create more terrorists), but it would also be more cost-effective, and less dangerous to our troops.
(6) Glad to hear you can sleep at night.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:51 pm
2) Of course I read your posted link. Why most of it just rehashed thoughts throughout the blog-site some of it was on base. I went over part of it in my post. If we establish freedom and democracy in Iraq, then their lives will improve and they will be more unlikely to feel like they are just trying to get by.
3) Sadaam violated 15 UN resolutions. He was shooting at UN patrol aircraft daily. He was defying all UN requests for disarmament. He was denying all UN requests for honest and open inspections. He was still rounding up and imprisoning civilians. He was thwarting the oil for food program and allowing the people the program was designed to help starve. He was attempting to purchase banned weapons systems (even if they were convential), which were forbidden under the original cease fire agreement. He overtly and flagrently threatened the US and other UN allies. He covertly funded terrorists and suicide bombers. He provided money to the families of suicide bombers in Palestine prompting more fanatics to become suicide bombers. He provided suicide belts to the Palestinian bombers. The evidence is so widespread it’s staggering.
http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2002/11/26/World/Proof.That.Saddam.Bankrolls.Terrorism-319351.shtml
If the Bush administration established this war with deceit, then it will go down in history as the largest international dupe ever conceived. Every leader in the entire free world, along with most rational people, knew of the evidence that Sadaam was supporting terrorism. (except you of course) Millions of dollars were paid out by Sadaam to terrorist organizations to help fund their suicide attacks against the infidels. Of course much of this money was coming from the oil for food program, which is part of that help being provided to civil society.
4) By the tone of your voice I can tell you really resent Christians in our government, even though it is based on Christian principles.
(required reading: America’s Christian Heritage, Gary DeMar)
So I suggested that, judging by your tone, you were most likely atheist or agnostic. Am I wrong? There is nothing wrong with eiter, but to be more afraid of Christian fundamentilists over Muslim extremists? What are you afraid of? That the government might force people to stop killing innocent babies or outlaw adultery or same sex marriage? Oooh, scary!
5) Helping civil society? We’ve been helping civil society for generations and where did it get us? These are the weak concessions and appeasments I’m talking about. We pour billions into these middle east hellholes and they hate us more each year. We were in Mogodishu to help civil society and they ripped our solders apart. We give millions to the poor in Pakistan, both by federal grants and private donations, and they marched in the streets celebrating 9/11 buring US flags. We gave Sadaam every opportunity to change his ways and join civil society and the international community, he declined. Handouts don’t work here and they won’t work abroad. These countries have now just come to expect it. As in the case of the sunami. We gave Indonesia about 1.6 billion in aid and they requested 11 billion more. Those people still hate us with every ounce of blood in their bodies. We allow them to come to our country in good faith and take advantage of our education system, then they return to their madrasses and preach our destruction. Is this helping quell the spread of terrorism?
They are playing us for suckers. The only way to help them is to overthrow their tyrannical governments and help them establish a government where they can fend for themselves with dignity and self respect. We have to cut off the head of terrorism so that the body will wither and die. We have to ensure that schools in these terrorist hotbeds allow free exchange of ideas, such as we are doing here, instead of forcing children to only learn the hateful and bigotred words of the Koran. If we stay focused and committed to rooting out these bad regimes and taking them down, either politically or by force, we will change things for the better in the Middle East. It won’t happen overnight and probably won’t happen in our lifetimes but I see no other way out. We’ve tried going your route of civil society handouts and it just doesn’t work Ben. Sorry, we tried. It’s never worked and it never will. They are using our good will against us and will continue to do so until the good will is cut off for good.
6) I’m glad that your glad.
July 25th, 2005 at 1:01 pm
For claiming that things are “not so cut-and-dry” Dom’s arguments seem to be centered on the “kill them (cut) because all they want to do is kill us (dry)” method.
There is definitely a military operation going on, and certain aspects will require military force. But taking the road of ultimate force, in rooting out and destroying every terrorist cell is folly. For one, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so. The nature of the “enemy” is so shadowy that claiming you can wipe them all out is preposterous. They are hidden deep, they can be normal people just waiting for the right time, and there is just too much ground, too many people, too many places that an attack could do damage. It would be like claiming the military is going to stop all crime in America, there are just too many damn liquor stores that could be robbed. The state of vigilance required to “secure” the nation is not even financially possible in regards to equipment and manpower, we do not even have to delve into the political and social arguments of universal surveillance, investigation, and interrogation. The billions of dollars spent on this could benefit everyone else in the country so much more.
The second reason “ultimate force” is impossible is the old principle of the hydra: every head you cut off is replaced by two more dangerous and more clever heads. The damage troops will do in the search for one cell will ultimately disgust enough others to create two cells out of the ashes of the first.
The deeper cause of terrorism needs to be alleviated. I realize there are some religious zealots too stubborn to live in the modern world, aka Osama. There are Christians like this, there are muslims like this. I do not know the solution to these people, you just have to hope for the best, that the hatred they spew falls on apathetic ears or just on a group that despite their fiery words will never DO anything. To outright say “kill ‘em all, bubba!” seems rather primitive to me, definitely the slippery slope. I’m sure Hitler started out the same way. Economic boons and increased social awareness/stability will address the root of the problem, and then any remnants of hate can be dealt with.
Lastly,
“Liberals are fighting for terrorists in Gitmo.”
How about Americans follow the ideals of this country? Trial by jury, proper representation, cruel and unusual punishment? Even if these men are guilty (not proven) they should not “disappear” like they do at Gitmo or places like Abu Ghraib. Giving people rights even when they might not even deserve it is what makes America of the best countries on the planet.
Let’s take the high road, please.
July 25th, 2005 at 1:27 pm
As another comment, I just cannot succumb to the thinking that the only way to solve the problem is with death and destruction. Maybe I am naive, but maybe you are bloodthirsty? No one is right.
Sometimes I feel that only through the death of others will things be solved, but I can not shake the feeling that this is ridiculously wrong. Is there a difference between self-defense and pre-emptive self-defense?
Another note, feeling the mantle of moderator status on my shoulders, should this debate move to the forums? It seems to have deviated in focus in regards to the article.
July 25th, 2005 at 1:55 pm
What I’m saying has nothing to do with “kill them all, bubba”. What we need to do is keep fighting them everywhere we can until they suffer so much damage, so many losses that they lose the will to fight. In WWII the Japenese would of loved it if we had just pushed them back to their island and then left them alone. They would of sat back and regrouped, planned and strategized and waited until the time was right to strike again. Fortunately we struck them at the heart of their society. We demonstrated that we had the will and the power to wipe them out completely if need be. This was the ultimate deterrent which finally ended the war. Surrender or suffer total annihilation. No if, ands or buts. This broke Japans will to continue hostilities.
We must demonstrate this same will and commitment to completley wipe them out if need be. I do believe that new cells will pop up once we shut one down, but then we need to go after those cells and the next and the next. By garnering international support and convincing Europe and other western allies that this is a fight not just against “American Imperialism” like the jihadists would like them to believe, but a fight against the freedoms and Christian beliefs of the west, we will aquire the resources necessary to combat this evil.
It’s funny you mentioned Hitler becuase in many ways this fight has similarities to the beginning of WWII. Hitler started his reign by preaching his socialist views as the head of the Nazi party. Nobody took him seriously until he started attacking his neighbors. One by one, the smaller weaker neighbors fell until, one day, he ended up at the shores of the west. Most nations wanted to ignore the threat because it didn’t necessarily concern them. So they went about their daily lives and let other nations deal with Hitler, until the threat got so out of control they had no other choice then to fight or submit.
I believe that ultimately this will happen in this war against the terrorists. They are actually doing themselves harm with every country they attack. One blogger here stated that he heard that the terrorists attack only “occupied” (I assume that means American occupied) lands 99% of the time. That’s hogwash and everyone knows it. They’ve attacked in Israel, Egypt, Syria, Bahrain, Quatar, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Turkey, Bali, U.S., Spain and now in London. None of these countries is occupied but yet they still attack. Eventually these nations will realize that it is in their best interests to stand with us and fight these extremists to the finish. They will finally come to the conclusion that you cannot pacify them with promises of aid and peace. They will try to destroy anyone who does not conform to their ideal of Islam and will only stop once they realize that they can no longer operate without substaining heavy heavy losses. Throughout history this has proven the downfall of invading armies and conquering leaders. They will keep attacking the world until the world gets the will and resolve to fight them to the death on every continent and in every fashion necessary for their ultimate defeat Not the death of the individual, per say, but the death of their campaign to rid the world of infidels. They must be made aware that their of world Islamisism will ultimately fail and fall on the trash heap of history.
That is how we will finally rid the planet of this evil.
To comment on the treatment of prisoners in Gitmo. We treat these prisoners better than any other country would treat them. We feed them and clothe them, give them Korans and other reading material, three meals a day that are consistent with their diets and religious beliefs. These prisoners are there because they’ve been captured fighting against us in a war. That war is not over yet. They get military tribunals to decide whether they get released or stay in prison until hostilities have ceased. What other nation goes this far for prisoners? Liberal politicians choose words like “Nazis”, “Oppressors”, “Stormtroopers” and “Thugs” to describe our soldiers at Gitmo. They call conditions there “a modern day gulag”. This is the only gulag on earth where the prisoners come out in better condition then when they went in. This is not a fight for American ideals, this is pure hatred for the military and what this administration is trying to accomplish in this war. Prisoners are disappearing? Even with so many liberal eyes on what we are doing over there? That’s a new one that I have yet to verify.
We are taking the high road. We do not target innocent civilians. We are not plotting to destroy their financial institutions and their religion. We don’t preach hatred for their kind. We treat their wounded and captured humainly and do not slit their throats or cut off their heads. We do not kidnapp their leaders and hold them for ransom. We do not kidnapp humanitarian workers. We avoid attacking their places of worship. We treat terrorist prisoners with the best healthcare and food and living conditions available.
In my book, that is taking the high road.
July 25th, 2005 at 3:26 pm
“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
~Abraham Lincoln
July 25th, 2005 at 3:34 pm
Dom ever stop and wonder how the precious wheels of society keep churning? The freedom that you so highly tout is at the whim and mercy of middle east oil. I hope that you put as much fervent support into research of alternative energies, better standards for gas mileage, and other methods of lessening America’s complete and utter dependance on foreign oil as you do into killing any Muslim who looks at you funny.
July 25th, 2005 at 5:11 pm
You bet I do Luke. I have urged my congressmen to pass legislation for drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge. I think we should build more nuclear power plants and more internal oil refineries. I think we should spend more money on research, as Bush has proposed, into hydrogen fuels and electric transportation. I’ve decided to telecommute to my job and work from a home office so that I’m one less car on the highway. I’m there with you but that’s going to take time and the reality is that right now we need oil to exist. We have plenty of oil reserves here in our own country that go untapped because of the enviromentilists who fight it at every turn. Do you not drive a car Luke? Or fly in planes or take a train or a cab? We ALL rely on oil and I’m sure everyone would love us to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. So do something about it and write your congressional leaders urging them to find new ways to discover and process the vast oil reserves here as well as building more refineries and more power plants, incentives for companies devloping new power concepts, etc. All this can be done in our country in order to lesson our dependence on foreign energy.
But you know what Luke, even if everything you and I have said comes to pass, it still won’t lesson the Islamic extremist threat we face. We discovered their oil for them, built their refineries and handed over the keys. So their gripe is not about oil. It’s about an insane ideology.
And it would be nice of you to notice that I’ve always stated targeting “extremists” or “terrorists” and not all Muslims, as you would like to insinuate.
July 25th, 2005 at 5:11 pm
You bet I do Luke. I have urged my congressmen to pass legislation for drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge. I think we should build more nuclear power plants and more internal oil refineries. I think we should spend more money on research, as Bush has proposed, into hydrogen fuels and electric transportation. I’ve decided to telecommute to my job and work from a home office so that I’m one less car on the highway. I’m there with you but that’s going to take time and the reality is that right now we need oil to exist. We have plenty of oil reserves here in our own country that go untapped because of the enviromentilists who fight it at every turn. Do you not drive a car Luke? Or fly in planes or take a train or a cab? We ALL rely on oil and I’m sure everyone would love us to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. So do something about it and write your congressional leaders urging them to find new ways to discover and process the vast oil reserves here as well as building more refineries and more power plants, incentives for companies devloping new power concepts, etc. All this can be done in our country in order to lesson our dependence on foreign energy.
But you know what Luke, even if everything you and I have said comes to pass, it still won’t lesson the Islamic extremist threat we face. We discovered their oil for them, built their refineries and handed over the keys. So their gripe is not about oil. It’s about an insane ideology.
And it would be nice of you to notice that I’ve always stated targeting “extremists” or “terrorists” and not all Muslims, as you would like to insinuate.
Thanks for the post. I especially like your quote by Abe Lincoln.
July 25th, 2005 at 8:44 pm
“What we need to do is keep fighting them everywhere we can until they suffer so much damage, so many losses that they lose the will to fight. In WWII the Japenese would of loved it if we had just pushed them back to their island and then left them alone. They would of sat back and regrouped, planned and strategized and waited until the time was right to strike again. Fortunately we struck them at the heart of their society. We demonstrated that we had the will and the power to wipe them out completely if need be. This was the ultimate deterrent which finally ended the war. Surrender or suffer total annihilation. No if, ands or buts. This broke Japans will to continue hostilities.
We must demonstrate this same will and commitment to completley wipe them out if need be. I do believe that new cells will pop up once we shut one down, but then we need to go after those cells and the next and the next. By garnering international support and convincing Europe and other western allies that this is a fight not just against “American Imperialism” like the jihadists would like them to believe, but a fight against the freedoms and Christian beliefs of the west, we will aquire the resources necessary to combat this evil.”
Surely there is a more cost effective and less deadly way to undercut terrorists and their sympathizers.
We really are not in anything like a World War II situation. Even then dropping A-bombs was a debatable strategy. The point was to break the enemy, yes, and we could have done that without the bomb, but, so it has been told, we calculated it would save more lives by dropping the bombs than by traditional warfare.
Would you then find it appropriate to A-bomb nations in the Middle East? Probably not, because we are not fighting a state, but an ideology, and the dropping of the bomb would create more hostility and more terrorists and even more hostile governments throughout the world.
Since A-bombs are ineffective when we are not fighting a state, why would we think that military invasions are effective when we are not fighting a state? There is no Emperor to surrender to us. The is no army that will throw down their weapons and be taken as prisoners.
I think it is possible that we could have invaded Iraq with far greater ease had we not been acting against the interests of the Iraqi people for so long. There could have been flowers, sweets, and hugs awaiting our troops. But we put Saddam into power (Rummy’s famous handshake), and supported him until right before the Gulf War. After the Gulf War, we let him stay in power, and we turned our backs on the Iraqi opposition to be slaughtered. We never helped rebuild the infrastructure, water systems, hospitals, etc. Then we imposed the sanctions on Iraq (I know, you’ll want to blame Saddam, and I’m sure he was part of the problem… but we knew that all along, and still did nothing), which resulted in many more deaths. Then we invaded a second time, and made it clear what we were interested in: the oil and intelligence ministries, leaving everything else open to looting.
Yes, perhaps we can invade countries and destroy terrorists. But it would help if our leaders actually cared about killing terrorists. If they did, we would have chosen Saudi Arabia or Pakistan before Iraq. It would also help if we had the support of the citizens, which we could easily have, if we didn’t constantly act against their interests. We have no credibility, and rightly so. It must be earned. And the funny thing is, people are so desperate in the world, I don’t think it would take much to earn that credibility before launching military strikes. This isn’t a matter of bribing populations. It is a matter of truly providing them with support in their daily lives, circumventing extremists and tyrants along the way. These bastards may try to stop us, and it may not be easy; there may be violent repression on those who cooperate with us. But it will be more honorable, more legitimate, and ultimately more successful, and less costly in terms of lives and finances.
And about Iraq and terrorism. Yes, we all knew about Saddam giving money to the families of suicide bombers, as the article makes clear. Truly a horrible thing. But many in the Arab world see the Palestinian struggle as a battle to end occupation. That does not justify killing civilians. And Saddam was probably giving money to gain political muscle But civilians have been slaughtered on both sides. Both the Israeli government and the Palestinian terrorists commit atrocities. Perhaps if we supported the peace movements among both sides, as opposed to dealing with killers on both sides as we have constantly done, we could get something accomplished.
But I digress: take away Israel/Palestine, and Iraq simply was not a hot-bed of terrorism. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan would make more sense to invade. The people in control of the administration and the military simply do not care about fighting terrorists, or, at least it is not a priority.
And as far as not targeting civilians, places of worship, yes, you’re probably correct. But we have shown time and time again that we’re willing to destroy cities, civilians, and places of worship when they get in our way, and when we know we’ll never have the military strength to stay in these cities and rebuild them. And we still haven’t fixed what we destroyed in the first Gulf War and through the sanctions period. We certainly targeted facilities essential to the civilian population then.
July 26th, 2005 at 10:33 am
“We have to ensure that schools in these terrorist hotbeds allow free exchange of ideas, such as we are doing here, instead of forcing children to only learn the hateful and bigotred words of the Koran.”
Again your anti-Muslim attitude rears its head. The Koran is no more hateful or bigotred than the Bible (and please, spare me the comparisons). The problem (with BOTH) is the fundamentalist interpretations. You do realize that a society with “free exchange” of ideas would include the freedom to believe in, follow, and teach the Koran right? Would it still be hateful and bigotred then, or would it suddenly lose those traits simply because its now part of a “free exchange of ideas”?
July 26th, 2005 at 11:42 am
“You bet I do Luke. I have urged my congressmen to pass legislation for drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge.”
Please read this for my thoughts on ANWR (if you haven’t already)- http://www.thenewwisdom.com/2005/05/anwr-is-not-the-answer/
Wouldn’t the billions that will be spent on this project be better used on research and development of solar, wind and the like? I don’t know, maybe its not…I don’t claim to know the right answer to this, but I at least have no illusions about the amount of oil to be found in ANWR and the very minute role it will play in daily consumption / production once its online.
“I think we should build more nuclear power plants and more internal oil refineries. I think we should spend more money on research, as Bush has proposed, into hydrogen fuels and electric transportation.”
As far as hydrogen goes, I have serious doubts about it.
http://www.culturechange.org/hydrogen.htm
The biggest doubt comes from the fact that hydrogen itself does not exist naturally, and must be separated from other substances (such as water) before its used for fuel cells. The process of separating the hydrogen actually takes more energy than you get from burning it once separated, therefore its EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) will always be in the negative, a.k.a unsustainable.
The things Bush has proposed thus far are little more than fluff. These technologies should be what everyone is talking about, not gay marriage, Terry Schiavo, social security, and the horde of other distractions that come and go faster than Paris Hilton’s acting career.
“I’ve decided to telecommute to my job and work from a home office so that I’m one less car on the highway. I’m there with you but that’s going to take time and the reality is that right now we need oil to exist.”
Of course we need oil to exist, that is my entire point. That is why I believe this war on terror has some serious ulterior motives and why I believe that controlling the energy flow from the Middle East is the underlying reason for the whole thing.
“We have plenty of oil reserves here in our own country that go untapped because of the enviromentilists who fight it at every turn.”
Sorry but you’re simply wrong here. American oil production peaked in 1972 (as predicted by the Hubbert scale) and has been in a steady decline ever since. Consumption however has been on a steady (and sometimes not-so-steady) rise. We consume around 21 million barrels a day and produce around 5 million. Again, for someone who is so opposed to things that are “cut and dry” your attribution of blame to environmentalists is rather odd. As for these massive reserves you speak of, America does have a national reserve…but its only a few million barrels worth (they keep it in salt mines in Texas). Building more refineries isn’t going to do much other than deplete us even faster, making us more dependant on foreign oil (though, making the current ones more efficient would be something I could get behind).
“Do you not drive a car Luke? Or fly in planes or take a train or a cab? We ALL rely on oil and I’m sure everyone would love us to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.”
Of course I drive a car and all that fun stuff. Just because I see things for what they are doesn’t make me a hypocrite for speaking out against them. And thats really not even what I am doing, I don’t think cars and planes and technology and advancement are bad, but I think its important to understand the processes and the realities of how they come to be and how they are sustained. I think its important to always be looking for a better way of doing things, and that is where my point of view comes from.
“So do something about it and write your congressional leaders urging them to find new ways to discover and process the vast oil reserves here as well as building more refineries and more power plants, incentives for companies devloping new power concepts, etc. All this can be done in our country in order to lesson our dependence on foreign energy.”
I like results, which is why I shy away from writing letters to politicians. I’m not about to get into a pissing contest, so I’ll simply say that I do my part. Right now, to me, the biggest thing is raising awareness. I’m no scientist, I don’t know how to make a wind turbine work. However, I believe that if enough people are made aware of the problem, a solution is that much easier to develop. Your statement about vast oil reserves makes no sense. How can you discover something that doesn’t exist?
“And it would be nice of you to notice that I’ve always stated targeting “extremists” or “terrorists” and not all Muslims, as you would like to insinuate.”
I insinuate nothing, you did enough of that on your own with your spiteful remarks about the Koran, Islam, Allah, and wrapping white flags around my head (like a TOWEL right?). If you don’t want to be viewed as a bigot, stop acting like one.
“Thanks for the post. I especially like your quote by Abe Lincoln.”
You’re welcome.
July 26th, 2005 at 10:37 pm
Luke so far I’ve been giving all the suggestions and you’ve been criticizing all of them. What are your plans for this fight against terrorism? Does it really exitst? If we aren’t fighting Muslim extremists, who are we fighting? How do we defeat them? How are you doing your part? How are you raising awareness? What is your better plan on how to do things? How do we keep up the numbers of our military up without recruitment? Should we lay down and submit? Should we not fight? Should we surrender? Should we pretend it is the Christian right attacking us and not the Muslim extremists?
How do we suddenly change from fossil fuels to wind and solar? How do we change our policies without writing our politicians? How do we decrease our dependence on foreign oil? How do we change these MUSLIM terrorists from being hell bent on destroying us?
You’ve obviously got some opinions, so lets hear them. I would love to critique them the way you’ve critiqued mine.
July 26th, 2005 at 11:23 pm
Okay guys, I’m going to have to sign off of this blog now. We’ve had our fun and could go round and round for what would feel like an eternity. I probabaly won’t be able to change your minds and I know you won’t be able to change mine. So let’s leave it at that. Although I bet your opinions would be different if Clinton or Kerry were in office. Don’t forget that almost all of your Democrat voted pro-war.
Is there anyone else on this blog or is it only the staff that is posting? Jonathan is the only level headed guy among you. You guys should look at hiring him. Do you have real jobs or do you just bash our country on a daily basis? You need to move over to some conservative blogs instead of just stroking each other all day on the “new wisdom”. I rarely see any dissenting comment in any of your blog pages, I’m sure that’s why you’ve gone after me with like 16 virulent posts. Do you guys just sit in the same room poking each other in the ribs and saying “it’s your turn” as your read my posts?
It’s not that I hate communicating here, I don’t. I think that all of you are very articulate and very bright, but just wrong. I’m guessing that you are probably students at a liberal university or maybe even a professor or two (MrKedder). Am I wrong? I tried to look up the owner of the website and I see it’s a private reg so I guess you want to hide your identity. I hope you are not really blogging out of a madrasse in Egypt or Saudi Arabia. (I would really be pissing some people off) I figure you are probably located at UC Berkley or some other liberal “think tank” school.
Well it’s been fun, I can’t say it hasn’t. But I’ve got minds to mold and thoughts to opine. I’m just a little ol’ conservative from the left coast but I love the debate.
God bless all of you. (oh sorry, should I have just said “bless all of you?)
Best Regards,
Dom
July 27th, 2005 at 12:22 am
There’s no denying that the authors generally lean in the same direction politically on many issues. It’s why we started the site. But believe me when I say that I would love, love, LOVE it if more people came to tell us how wrong we are. You’ll also have to take my word that we’ve put considerable effort into gathering a wide audience. It’s a slow, difficult process, but we have a good group here that will make it possible. I’m also quite happy to say that Jon does in fact write for us. Check out his excellent article on MSG.
I seriously appreciate you coming by to share your thoughts. I wouldn’t have minded if you brought 20 conservatives over to help you out. This is easily the liveliest thread of comments we’ve had on any article. It’s awesome, no doubt (well, at least for me; I can only hope it’s been as enjoyable for everyone else).
I probably spend a lot more time thinking about programming (my profession), my girlfriend, movies, video games, my car, etc. than I do about these issues. It’s why I wanted to start the site. To me it’s all a great experiment and a huge opportunity to learn things. I honestly don’t know a lot of conservatives in real life (actually, I probably do since I work in defense, but you know what they say about religion and politics at work). So please feel free to come back and comment on issues other than war and terrorism if you’re tired of this subject.
In the immortal words of George W. Bush, “Bring it on!”
July 27th, 2005 at 12:29 am
[edited because I originally said I never posted a comment when I clearly did! my bad]
July 27th, 2005 at 8:30 am
“So let’s leave it at that. Although I bet your opinions would be different if Clinton or Kerry were in office. Don’t forget that almost all of your Democrat voted pro-war.”
I’m not a Democrat. Clinton and Kerry are thieves of the progressive movement. As is the Democratic party in general, though individual members stand out from the crowd.
“Jonathan is the only level headed guy among you.”
Did I do something non-level-headed?
“You need to move over to some conservative blogs instead of just stroking each other all day on the “new wisdom”. I rarely see any dissenting comment in any of your blog pages, I’m sure that’s why you’ve gone after me with like 16 virulent posts.”
We write in hope of bringing discussion. We’re new, so no audience, and who knows if there ever will be one. I’m no blog fanatic, I just like to think and write.
Virulent? I really think we were all pretty okay… some “I can’t believe you think that” sorts of statements going on. But did you read the very first comment, yours? Here it is: “Mrkedder, you are truly a disgusting sort. Without this recruiting going on, you may not have the freedom to write your stinking blog.” I believe we raised the civility substantially from that first post.
Hiding identity? I haven’t put my whole name, but I’ve revealed a lot about myself throughout the site.
Your last comments about madrassas, and leaving the God out of God Bless You… man, you just can’t be nice. Your personal insults and meaness, from post one (and sentence one) to the last, I think says a lot.
You have a lot of assumptions about us, all of which are wrong. But assumptions and stereotypes about those who disagree with you makes things easier on you, don’t they? We couldn’t possibly be normal people, but must be from Berkeley and in liberal think tanks and the like.
July 27th, 2005 at 6:53 pm
Where exactly was I not “level-headed” (and who made you an authority on judging level-headedness?)
Virulent? Why? Because I disagree with you and I’m not afraid to speak my mind?
I’m no Democrat, so stop with your assumptions (which you seem to throw around LIBERALLY *grin*). I totally agree with Ben about Clinton and Kerry, to set the record straight.
As far as the rest of your post, if you really want to talk about it I’ll oblige your requests for my opinions on these issues…though I tend to agree with you in that we could go around and around on this forever. Contrary to what you believe, we didn’t start this site to stroke each others egos…Duc summed it up nicely. Disagreement and healthy debate is one of the things I was looking forward to on this site.
July 27th, 2005 at 7:56 pm
To answer your other assumptions, I went to college for a few years but don’t have a degree. I’m 25, work as a CAD operator and computer tech for a small company. I’m currently talking to a solar energy company about doing CAD work for them (in hopes of getting involved in something that produces some of the actual results I referred to). I’m also a musician (guitar, drums), and co-own a small recording studio.
I didn’t get interested in politics or social issues until a few years ago, and my opinions are my own.
Pleased to meet you.
July 28th, 2005 at 1:24 pm
Ben, well I have a few websites of my own so I know how hard it is to drive traffic. I did enjoy the converstation with all of you and wish you the best of luck with your endeavors. You might want to add a few conservatives to your staff in order to even it out, if that’s the type of discussion your looking for. You’ll gather a lot more bloggers that way. Believe me there are plenty of conservatives out there. (Unless you live in Boston or San Fran)
Best of luck to all of you.
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